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Topic: Why sail an ISO rather than a 4000? And do the proposed changes help? |
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Guy Beckett |
Posted: 11-Mar-04 16:10 |
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As I understand it the main point of all the proposed changes is to stimulate interest in the class. As a relatively recent convert to the ISO (within the last 9 months) I guess I’m probably closer to the “why sail an ISO” issues than many of the better ISO sailors. I think if we can discuss why people choose ISO’s that will help the class to grow. (Of course why people stay sailing ISOs is crucial too – but for the purposes of this thread can we try to keep the discussion to what attracts newcomers).
Main reason for our choice – we saw the ISO as a step into sailing fast asymetrics, having not sailed dinghies for a while.
Other options for us included the 29er, Laser 4000 and an RS800 sailed single trapeze. A key common denominator was that I didn’t feel ready to trapeze and helm. However I haven’t given up on the idea that I might do that! The main rival boat for us was the Laser 4000.
ISO advantages included:
1. Solid wings - less intimidating for novice crews than racks. However the presence of wings was a key attraction – as an introduction to modern dinghies being able to sail off wings is vital to the boat’s appeal. Also the link to the 49er made the solid wings look quite current to my eyes. Personally I would widen them, cut down their weight and make them “self-draining” – ie have no compartment. I think getting used to the leverage of wings is a key part of the boar’s appeal. I’d also let everyone use them…
2. Low cost
3. Simplicity – personally I think “tweaks” should be evolved into “modifications” – eg the strops as supplied are not adjustable. They obviously should be – so there should a standard , one-design, way in which they are…
4. One of a handful of ‘manageable’ aysmetrics – meaning getting off the beach isn’t too difficult and you start having fun immediately!
5. Web site and friendly class association.
6. Quite a hefty sales push from Jon Manners of Topper at Datchet (so at some levels Topper do support the boat!)
ISO disadvantages:
1. Perception that this is a dying class – no new boats is a long term disaster.
2. More Laser 4000s sailing at Datchet where we sail – this is still an issue and if I was certain that single trapeze asymetrics were the long term option might have been a bigger issue. Solved in the short term by the arrival of a bunch of very keen Iso sailors from King George’s.
3. Dated appearance of boat – in standard form the boat looks like something from the 80s (I am a graphic designer and over sensitive to such things but still the big bubble writing ISO logo on the side of my boat makes me wince – a tweak for how to remove ISO topper logos would be welcome!
The wings are part of this issue, not because they are solid but because they are lumpy and clumsy looking. I totally get the class association’s desire for change.
4. Topper brand - I do associate Topper with only one boat.. I can’t be alone in this.
If I was ‘changing’ the ISO I would:
1. Be up front with Topper – have they officially given up with the class? If so with ISOtech negotiate the rights from them. What is Topper’s stake / contract?
2. Then get a new builder as the first move. The Lark class reinvigorated itself by moving builders at several wobbly moments in its history. Let the new builder evolve the deck mouldings and the wings together as part of a professional relaunch. Dream new builders would be Ovington – might fit into their range quite comfortably at the ‘intro’ end. Otherwise go for Rondar and/or one of the other 470/505 builders.
3. If the boat got a proper push by a big player (ovington, rs, a re-enthused topper) keep it strictly one-design (allowing the manufacturer to up-date in dialogue with class/ISOtec. In this scenario evolve the boat to attract fireball sailors….
4. Otherwise evolve the boat like the 505 / Lark – several manufacturers are allowed and all one-manufacturery / topper branding stops. . This will push the class into a more rarified territory at the front of the fleet… However entry into 505 class is as cheap as the ISO I think…
I suppose what I’m really saying is that from my perspective the non support of Topper is the big factor and that we should address that sooner rather than later… |
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GBR507 |
Posted: 11-Mar-04 18:54 |
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Guy, I think I agree with you...however I would also like to add one little note.
Having spoken to the guys at Sobstad they have said near enough exactly what you have posted - but they emphasise the power of the class association and that if it wasn't for them we wouldn't be here now - so firstly well done on a swell job to the committee, it does take alot to organise us lot.
Sobstad would love to deal directly with the end-user i.e. US the sailor...so maybe we could add this to are potential development - communication - and what does Wet and Windy really do for the ISO class association, despite hold stock and overprice the sails - not meant horribly but still a little expensive, or is it just me that thinks I could buy a B14 main from North Sails for the same price direct?
Any way just a thought?
Mark |
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Adam Wallace |
Posted: 11-Mar-04 20:35 |
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The idea of updating the ISO logo seems a good one. The bubbly ISO does look a bit dated and its something that wouldnt cost much nor be too hard to do but would still achieve a lot. |
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rob |
Posted: 12-Mar-04 10:08 |
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Hello guy
Nice ideas i think the new logo idea is good. and the point on the wins is obviously a big one at the moment as long as new wings dont split the fleet. i have no huge objection to them but as a team who dont currently use wings i would rater see the same weight wings but in new form. This would keep the original idea of the iso that everybody is equal in most winds. |
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Nick M |
Posted: 17-Mar-04 19:09 |
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how big are these wings and would they be adjustable to different crew weightgs? |
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Pete Lindley |
Posted: 18-Mar-04 16:27 |
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The wings would protrude the same distance and would not be adjustable. They would also be the same weight as the current ones.
Pete |
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tasarhans |
Posted: 06-Oct-05 12:42 |
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Hi Guys,
though an older topic, still good to think it over...
There at least 2 point on which I would comment...
I am on the same crossing point as Guy, except that I haven't decide now...
When young I sailed 420 on the trapeze, later with friends falcons (Dutch valk). For some years I hit upon an old Tasar (what Bethwaite calls a high performance, low power boat) Great fun, quite technical trim to sail it fast.
My sailmate wanted more spectacular sailing(spi and trapeze) and we looked for a bit modern yet attainable high performance boat. L4K or ISO seems good alternatives. But because in Holland high performance sailing is not popular (even 49er) there is only a niche market for secondhand skiffs and are overpriced (they try to charge 5 to 6000 GBpound for an ISO with single suit of sails!! so for sale for more than a year!)
Low cost and a forgiving skiff is an important quality for develloping enthusiasm for skiffsailing. (In holland there are low scale multiskiff events)
Costs of sails makes for me the difference between Laser 4K and ISO for the mainstream market it is more about marketing I think (RS Feva is blossoming in Holland).
But for a succesfull class manufacturer and class organisation need to cooperate very neat... I think the marketing of RS makes the RS range appealing boats for people outside the class... In Holland no one has ever heard of Topper (same with Tasar, it is assigned with history, not modern sailing!) trying to set up a succesfull class is then out of reach.
Is there some movements in the choice/ cooperation with the manufacturer or another who wants to invest in the class??
Tasar is still booming in australie (= native) Japan and a bit in Canada/ US but probably fading away in Europe (except GB??? not sure)..
As long as the serious discussions are about the design of the logo... that isier to adapt... Tasar class decided to abandon the development of Tasar 2 with Gennaker and therefore not to get along with the state of the art..) ISO does not need such improvements I guess and there is time to look for a suitable marketing partner...
Hans Smorenburg |
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rob |
Posted: 09-Oct-05 17:01 |
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Guy you obviously have a lot of ideas in my opinion the best thing you could do as a graphic designer is design a few logos and then show them to the comity and class who can then decide what to do i.e. put it to a vote and maybe even get topper involved. I guess what I am trying to say is don’t complain have a viable alternative.
I don’t know what to say about new boats and different manufacturers as it is a massive subject on which I don’t know enough. But what I do think is that something does need to be done but it is a task for someone with some very good business skills and ideally a link in the marine industry as far as I know we don’t have anyone that suits the bill. It is a mammoth task and would take a lot of time and effort.
If you, and anyone else wants the fleet to grow we need to raise numbers of boats racing. 6 boats at the last open meeting is not going to encourage people to buy an Iso. Also it was an asymmetric open with the potential to show off the class and boat. Instead we looked rather sorry for ourselves when only four boats race on Saturday.
The number of people that use this message board if every body just went to there local events and the nationals the fleet would really take off. I think next years calendar involves so more open events lets show the other classes what we are made of.
Rob 650.
P.s. The other rob you may want to use your sail number so people don’t get confused.
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AndyISO1024 |
Posted: 10-Oct-05 22:41 |
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I'm very keen to see the ISO be bought back into it's former glory. Having crewed one in 97/98 and now owning one.
In reply to rob's eariler comment, i may not have a great business mind but am in the marine industry , with my boss (many moons ago) having worked for topper! And if it can be of help i'd be happy to get involved with any re-development.
The company i work for is SRM Marine (www.srmmarine.com).
See you guys at the Inlands
Andy |
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ISO 653 |
Posted: 11-Oct-05 13:01 |
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Well I'd effectively given up on the ISO totally. It looked as if the class was determined to die but perhaps there is a hope of long life yet. The 'modernisations' that I produced for the show boat two years ago ended up largely being voted down - partly I think because the 'wording' of the vote were loaded (IMHO) and it seemed an apparent death wish to me. From my understanding you still do not have an approved carbon boom - the only modernisation accepted.
I cannot alter my own opinion that the wings have always been mechanically suspect as is the original rudder stock. There are a host of other issues as well. Racing as opposed to recreational sailing moves on and classes either adapt or die and you have to be plain mad not to sort a clear boat failing when it stares you in the face when the competition will .. SMOD Classes that survive the first flush of youth have got to reinvent themselves and generally that means the owners waking up and facing reality. It can mean developing a new collaboration with the manufacturer or it could mean looking elsewhere - either way the design needs periodic review. Topper would have to see a proper business reason to support the class athough as would anyone else - and who can blame them.
Now without an ISO - but might be tempted back again if a corner is about to be turned. Will watch your deliberations with interest!!
Cheers - Mike Lyons
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Bob Ladell |
Posted: 11-Oct-05 22:21 |
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Ah - another load of negativity from ex ISO 653 ...... sigh !
1 We do have an approved Carbon Boom as shown at Dinghy Show 2005 - you sat right next to it - and subsequently sailed on this year's circuit. All it takes to get more out there is for people to place orders. Only one pair has done so to my knowledge.
2 Rudder stock - as per Rules 2004 - any rudder stock from any manufacturer can be used, provided the standard blade fits it.
3 Wings - members took a look and voted to keep the standard wings as the one half of the fleet that uses them couldn't see the benefit in spending Łx00 on new ones nor the additional mods to the boat to take them. If I recall, the vote to keep current wings was about 40:2 - the new sail plan had a similar response both times it's been on parade.
As for Topper and / or collaboration with ANO ........... the sands of time are running .............
The success of the ISO is undoubtedly continuing with boat prices rising all the time and the enthusiasm of sailors steadily increasing. Our Italian friends have gone out of their way to find 18 boats out there and we know there are many scattered across France, Germany and Holland and now Polland as well as the host of boats in the UK.
The ISO is a GREAT boat. The logo may be dated - but if someone designs a new one and members vote to adopt it that can change - just like anything else. Some may not like the aesthetics of the wings but how many life threatening incidents has the ISO had ?? And the L4k and other scafold winged boats ??
The Class Association runs on people taking initiative and putting forward well thought out - positive - proposals. Whinging - like in most walks of life - gets ignored.
Show me another boat for the price that can beat not only L4000s but also RS800s - over the water - let alone on handicap !!
Come on Mike ! - you're a good sailor and have some good and useful things to say. It just needs a 180 degree turn in presentation and people might just listen to your views.
Bob |
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ISO 653 |
Posted: 12-Oct-05 09:26 |
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If free debate is negativity then maybe a little negativity is perhaps what's needed. I'm sorry you feel that way Bob but what do you want me to say "All's well in the ISO world and could hardly be improved except for dabbling with the logo"
This is not about 'presentation' by the way and it's far too important to trivialise my views and those of very many others in that manner. I speak with some experience of turning a dying class around and have spoken directly to you on several occasions in a highly constructive manner and with the best of intentions - simply because I do care about the class. In my view regeneration is not possible without addressing all issues, even if they are ones you don't personally rate, and without a lot of plain speaking and examination of options. Direct criticism of individuals via this forum simply hardens positions, slows change and makes the process much more fraught.
I'm glad to hear about the rudder stocks, thanks for the information but I simply have not seen one yet. As for carbon booms - if they are approved where would anyone get one, how much are they and who sells them ? Again I've not seen one - nearly two and a half years since I built the first example for the class. And oh yes - I'm still 'ISO 653' because although sold I do helm it for the new owner on occasion so still have a passing interest. However I have no wish to further contribute to this particular 'debate'.
Mike Lyons 'ISO 653'
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mmoncia |
Posted: 12-Oct-05 10:35 |
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Hi guys,
I'm one of those italian owners Bob was speaking about, and let me share my view.
A class is made of people, events and boats.
when i was sailing 470 in italy we used to have 60 boats to our regional regattas, in a couple of years those numbers dropped to ~10, and that was due (to my understanding) to a new class chairman and the move to different way for setting up events dates-places, no more socials organized by the class after racing,... nothing which had to do with the boat itself or to new boats coming to the market.
To Hans S. I'd like to say that I didn't know almost anything about the Iso untill a couple of years ago, I thought there were no Iso in Italy and bought one last spring.
I don't know if I can say that ISO is the best boat on the market, but for sure I can say that that the environment is great, nice people, nice events (at least the ones I was able to join  ) nice web+Forum plenty of advices....(and the boat itself is funny and worth the money you pay for it)
I also think that outside UK we can try to create such environment; I have been asking information to friends/Sailing clubs/searching on the web and found 18 ISOs till now in Italy. some of them will probably change hand in the near future, we will try to set up events....
Go for it, join events, set up some in the Nederlands (what about running there Eurocup sooner or later)... you'll have fun for sure.
Bye
[Edited by mmoncia on 12-Oct-05 10:50] |
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Ian Keam_George |
Posted: 12-Oct-05 17:52 |
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It's interesting how an old thread can produce such strong feelings. I guess it shows that there is still a healthy enthusiasm for the class and a desire to take the ISO forward. Inevitably strong views are present on either side of the debate which, in my view, is a highly positive outcome.
Speaking as one who has just moved out of the class after 6 years of enormous fun and enjoyment with the added advantage of making some great friends and sharing some incredible experiences I feel there is some risk to the class due to a resurgance of popularity.
With the embryonic fleet in Italy, maybe a growing fleet in Holland (and not forgetting 1188 now lives in Poland) there is an unprecedented demand for boats. Regrettably no new boats are hitting the water and this may be to the detriment of the class in the long term.
As someone who has sailed Enterprises, Lasers and Fireballs I really rate the ISO; the boat is nice to sail, racing can be close and tactical or fast and furious the events get adequate support with some terrific people attending. The problem for the class is that many ISO's end up at club level and never touch the circuit; it's seen as a cheap entry to performance sailing and attracts many who need to start somewhere.
I like the idea of revised wings, carbon boom and freedom of rudder stock/tiller. The class (membership was not convinced). I tried with Sobstad to introduce a more manageable sail plan but the membership rejected this. This is fine, it's democracy, but there needs to be a plan, some plan to keep the class moving forward and the members who are pro and against change really need to be forthcoming with their ideas.
My personal view is that one design status needs to be preserved within a controlled framework that allows some freedom and a new marketing partner is absolutely necessary. I think Topper has bigger fish to fry and will never be persuaded to invest more than a basic effort into the class. |
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andyvhoward |
Posted: 12-Oct-05 22:42 |
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Im not sure it matters too much, but I tried to buy a carbon boom after breaking my original during a training session with Pete L, Wet and Windy hadn't seen a production version and having confidence in them I decided to go with a normal replacement - no great hardship really !!
I didnt have my boat when the vote on changes took place, and I dont go to many events, and I accept that I'm one of those (shudder shudder) club sailors, who wanted (as Ian states) to start somewhere.
I am personally interested in the development of the class, but for me, most of the joy has been buying into this level of sailing for a relatively low level of investment.
I think that the ISO is percieved as a dying class, purely because there are no new boats being built. A new marketing partner, perhaps would give some new impetus, but I think that pricing would be a key issue. Im not sure that a top price boat would necessarily cut it against the competition, as surely everyone has an eye on the re-saleability of their boat (what depreciation Laser 4K, vs ISO).
In short, a well priced boat that encourages sales, will re-energise the fleet. A high priced, all singing all dancing boat will alienate the existing fleet and will not necessarily take it somewhere new.
I dont have that much experience, but I think its a great boat, for the money.
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Rob_Heath |
Posted: 13-Oct-05 09:32 |
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Hi Folks,
I couldn't agree more with Andy. like him we wan't a boat that would give us some real performance, but didn't want to spend the sums required for the likes of L4K etc. The ISO has delivered in spades and we have no regrets whatsoever, even though we are still on a fairly steep learning curve !! In terms of 'Bangs per Buck' nothing comes close.
What is very interesting, bearing in mind some of the comments above, regarding dated looks, is that the ISO seems to draw a great deal interest from loads of people, even when there are much more exotic machines around, the comments may not be terribly well informed but it is quite nice to have a total stranger come up to you and say something like "that looks like a serious bit of kit". I personally find the lines of the ISO very pleasing, more of a proper boat than most of the flying tea trays about nowadays, without looking like a tugboat. I appreciate that the outright performance of the boat is critical to its appeal to the real racers, and that it is these people who are likely to run the class associations - in the case of the ISO I am pleased that the class is keeping true to the original concept. As a complete newcomer to high performance dinghies in March, I have found the website guides absolutely brilliant ( yo can't beat experience, and who wants to re-invent the wheel ! )and the advice given freely and in good spirit via this discussion group has also been very gratefully received. I hope that we will be able to do some events next year and prop up the back of the fleet !!!!!!
Finally, I rather like the logo; just call me old fasioned ( or just plain old ! )
Viva ISO
Rob : ISO806 |
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Lloyd Walker |
Posted: 13-Oct-05 12:13 |
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For what it is worth here is my two penneth. The thing that atracted me to the class was value for money. Rob is right there is a lot of 'Bang for your buck' We had a good local fleet (EYC) with good racing. The down side to this is, developement comes at a price, which no one seems to want to pay. When I bought my boat I ordered a new rudder stock from Mike Lyons one year later and it still hasn't materialised. This is no longer required as I am selling my boat! Sadly this is the sort of thing that puts people off. The class accepts a new rule but for whatever reason it is not implamented. Some developement is essensial to give the right impression, on the other hand you must not price out the current owners.It is a question of balance and at the moment things are standing still. It is no good having adopted new booms and rudders if they are not available.
To Bob I say if you can beat a laser 4000 or RS800 around the track then it says more about the people sailing them than about the boats. The 800 has the same sail area as an ISO and is lighter with twin wires how can it not be faster? I sugest you try sailing against the top guys in these classes. My boat is heading to France on Saturday. Another boat lost to the UK circuit. Why did no one in this country want to buy either my boat or Ians'? Wish I new.
In case anyone is interested the ISO class was represented at this years Endeavor Trophy (champ of champs ) We didn't do that well finishing 18th out of 26 but the feed back from most of the other classes was "oh are you still going". Events like the Endeavor can put the ISO on the map and I wish good luck to next years champion. I also urge whoever that may be to make every effort to go. The other classes will not know we are still going if we don't take part. The class should pay the entry fee as an incentive if needed.
As for the logo the first thing I did when I got my boat was to remove it.
Lloyd 1177 |
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andyvhoward |
Posted: 13-Oct-05 23:41 |
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With regard the logo; I just found out from my son that "retro" is quite "in" these days. Maybe if we all started wearing flares, tie die T-shirts had long hair and organised fondue paries, we would end up being perceived as, what's the fashionable word of the moment ............... oh yes I remeber now, COOL !
Happy days.
The Fonz |
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Rob_Heath |
Posted: 14-Oct-05 10:24 |
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What do you mean "start wearing flares" !!!!! doesn't everybody
Cheers Dudes
Rob : ISO806 |
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graham_737 |
Posted: 15-Oct-05 02:04 |
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I am another person who was attracted to the fleet by the cheap prices and good racing at club level with ian and jonny at essex yc.
i think that we all have to be honest with ourselves here and accept that the class needs changes to go forward. Just take a look at the yachts and yachting website and look at the nationals attendance table re: the blaze fleet. The blaze fleet was rapidly on the decline and as i'm sure Mike Lyons will be able to inform you, the blaze fleet has massively increased since modifying the boat and getting rid of the weight equalisation system. The following quote is from the 49er website....
""C.6 CREW WEIGHT EQUALISATION
C.6.1 DELETE current rule and replaced with THE WING WIDTH SHALL BE SET AT MAXIMUM LENGTH. (A maximum width will need to be defined from the Builders Construction Manual but will not be published for copyright reasons).""
This rule change is the class accepting that weight equalisation does not work as the weight added to the boat is passive weight and not active. This means that the ISO class is free to make modifications without worrying about weight equalisation. Why not put on some really nice wide racks and increase the performance of the boat? If scrapping weight equalisation is good enough for the 49er then it is good enough for me! Having sailed an 800 on the circuit for a while... it is clear to see that certain weights are more succesful than others. This is with an equalisation system so why not just accept that this is always going to be the case? I know that iso stands for equal but that was over 10 years ago and i think we need to move on!
As regards the boat being quicker than a laser 4000: having recently come back from the endeavour trophy i noticed that the laser 4000 representatives came 2nd, beating Paul Goodison and Saskia Clark amongst other top class british sailors. i think that this suggests that the 4000 is very competetive at the moment and maybe the handicap of this boat is incorrect if top 4000's are currently being beaten by iso's.
I really do like the Iso class and am already looking forward to competing at the inlands in a weeks time but i think that the class has to look to the future. a new manufacturer as topper aren't interested? a new sail plan? new foils and rudder stock? what a boat the iso could be. The class needs to come together, start getting better turn outs for events and move forward.
Graham 1177
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andyvhoward |
Posted: 15-Oct-05 23:06 |
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Most of your argument seems to be getting rid of the weight equalisation.
Is this the way forward, what are the advantages and drawbacks ? |
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Andrew Gould |
Posted: 16-Oct-05 09:59 |
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Original question. ISO vs Laser 4000s. Well, I dont' care. I owned both for about 3 years and did loads of opens in both boats. They are both brilliant boats.
The real issue is to go for the class where you can get the best holiday. I have to say that the best events I have ever done have been with the ISOs. The nationals at Salcombe a few years back were the best ever. Garda has been special over several years. Next year we've got the nationals at Hayling Island. Well we've got a dozen boats at Emsworth and are hoping to have most go down. We need to start talking to other ISO owners and encourage people to come. There may be offers of free accommodation (well a beer or two) from the Emsworth crowd as well as a curry evening along the lines of that fantastic Broadstairs dinner last year.
So who cares about carbon booms, rudder designs, logos etc? Who cares if the numbers went down last year, up a bit this year? They are all irrelevant in my book. I sail ISOs because we get some brilliant holidays racing them. I actually prefer to be contending for prizes in a fleet of 20 to 30 boats, than coming somewhere mid fleet in Lasers. I don't want to be sailing in the most competitive fleet or the one with the biggest numbers, just the class where you can get the best holiday!
Andrew |
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Bob Ladell |
Posted: 16-Oct-05 20:18 |
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OK Folks - we're listening. If I summarise correctly, there seems to be split opinion on whether changes are needed / desirable or not. The wings seem to be attracting most attention but with mention of rudder stock and both foils together with reference to the sail plan.
There are two Winter events that come that come to mind - Grafham Slalom and the Datchet Winter Warmer.( Anybody got thoughts on others ? )
How about we throw most of the rule book away for those two events and anyone who wants to sail them with any changes just goes for it - wings, sails, logo, rudder stock, foils... And anyone who wants to sail with the Rules format - also just goes for it and we see what the conclusions are from this winter test sail both in terms of performance, turn out and the all important fun factor. The two events should give a reasonable spread of conditions and we know from events results roughly how crews match up to eachother so should have a reasonable gauge of relative result.
The one thing I suggest we stick to is no new holes in the hull so that we protect the hull stock - and ensure boats can remain rule compliant for next year.
What do you think folks ??
Bob |
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paolomoncia |
Posted: 18-Oct-05 16:46 |
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My personal view - as a newcomer looking at the class from very far! - is that the problem is not likely to be resolved by big changes.
As far as I see it, the ISO class is excellent for those people that want to have fun (the boat is really great as it is now), nice holidays (agree with Andy!) and good time with friends, also before nd after racing. And not willing to spend too much for it.
I think that all possible changes should be targeted for these people. Highly competitive teams willing to race the Olympics will not leave the 470 or the 49er for the ISO, nor will those looking for extremely large fleets. Trying to "update" the boat might not be very appealing to those people, and result in making ISO sailing more expensive... so, possibly loosing interest for those that are sailing an ISO today (or willing to, if they knew of it!).
I think that first thing to sort out is the possibility of having Topper doing more (at least, be ready to provide new boats, spare, sails, masts.... when asked within a reasonable time!), or having some other buider taking over.
I don't fancy changes that will make the current fleet not competitive, as could be new, light wings or a new sail plan, both likely to improve boat speed and force to spend money to keep up to the front of the fleet.
Changes that can be done without affecting boat performance may include liberalization of wings use (it's totally up to you, but if you opt for the more leverage, you know you still bring much more weight with you!), or allowing other sailmakers build the sails - but exactly as they are now: they could be cheper, but reasonably have the same performance (and duration).
I'm waiting to see what happens... and look forward to meet you all next year, if it will be possible!
Cheers
Paolo |
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andyvhoward |
Posted: 18-Oct-05 22:21 |
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I'm 100% with Paolo |
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ben_775 |
Posted: 01-Nov-05 11:43 |
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As the new owner of ISO 775 that I bought last week I can at least tell you why I wanted an ISO:
Affordability, fun and compromise between performance and good manners.
(plus something that I'd be able to take on my mates in their 505's with while they are wrestling with their kite on the gybe)
I am planning on coming back into dinghy sailing after a few years so need a dinghy that isn't going to bite me every mistake I make. Carbon spars, wings or sail plans (apart from an asymmetric) were not on my list of wants or needs, neither was out and out hair-on-fire performance otherwise I would have picked up an INT14 or 505.
A logo change or rebranding would do little good without new hulls being made - I think that is the key focus - if they could be produced under licence by another constructor I think you'd have the ISO class' future secured for the next 20 years.
I also find it reassuring that the sails are made by one company - even though they are very expensive, they put the blame squarely on yourself for sailing badly if you get beaten !
The ISO should stick to its strengths and not try and compete directly with Laser 4000's - keep it simple, reliable and affordable !
Ben ISO775
PS
Incidentally, I am clubless at the mo' but will be sailing Chi Harbour next season as I live in Emsworth, so I am going to try and make the Nationals at Hayling if things work out with my planned crew.
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rob |
Posted: 01-Nov-05 16:38 |
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Ben some of us are racing at weston this winter including colin from Lanston come and join us.
rob and barry 650 |
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ISO 653 |
Posted: 10-Nov-05 21:06 |
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"When I bought my boat I ordered a new rudder stock from Mike Lyons one year later and it still hasn't materialised. This is no longer required as I am selling my boat! Sadly this is the sort of thing that puts people off. The class accepts a new rule but for whatever reason it is not implamented. Some developement is essensial to give the right impression, on the other hand you must not price out the current owners.It is a question of balance and at the moment things are standing still. It is no good having adopted new booms and rudders if they are not available"
Lloyd - It must be obvious that without any volume it is impossinble for any manufacturer to justify 'one-off's at a reasonable or acceptable cost. We developed a prototype for the ISO (with other items such as the carbon boom and a wing alternatives) based on requests from ISO owners to guage interest out of our own pockets. We then put it on the association show boat at no cost a couple of years ago and made it plain that we could finish the development if anyone could give us an idea of minimum order numbers - in other words we were looking for the association (or anyone else) to work with us to finish and support the project. An (improved or alternative) ISO stock has to be a custom development if the existing foil is to be easily reused. Unfortunately nobody seemed to realise this or to want to deal with us and we wrote off the prototype costs of this and other items for the ISO and put it down to experience. I simply cannot fund development of a specialist stock or anything else for that matter without knowing whether it will be adopted or supported by more than a very small number. We do offer superior stocks to both tradtional and modern classes but the risk is far less as these stocks are suitable across a great range of boats.
Changing the rule is only half the battle unfortunately - potential suppliers need to know if it is really worth it in a very small and specialist niche. Without some sort of agreement, support, and clear indication of volume no pricing could have been given or further development justified. I remember that you and one or two others were interested but but we could not have accepted orders. We do not consider that we have kept anyone waiting given the circumstances. We spent many hundreds of pounds speculatively and without official support of any kind and cannot see how we have let anyone down. I understand that Topper do still have rudders stocks available in any event and agreed to stock the approved carbon booms.
Mike Lyons
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murphcbr6 |
Posted: 11-Nov-05 15:16 |
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my two-penneth...
I bought an ISO this Summer - mainly as an affordable introduction to assymetrics - I wanted something livelier than the GP14 that I had previously been sailing and something that I could "grow into" (I still have use of a SeaFly for days when I don't feel like wrestling with the ISO.)
I'm not really interested in racing (although I did compete in the Birkett Memorial this year) - it would seem to me that the best course of action for the class would be to have a good base of "pleasure users" such as myself - and a strong racing group. This would mean that you would get the volumes that Mike Lyons needs and there would be a constant influx of aspiring racers into the class.
The pre-requisites for this scenario seem to me to be the continued availibility of new hulls, spars and sails at reasonable cost.
I think you people have to make the decision whether the ISO should be a niche market out-and-out racer with very specific rules/regulations or whether we want to be a good all-rounder class with large on-the-water numbers supporting a keen(er) racing cadre.
It would seem to me that if the ISO is not to become an anomaly -some compromise between the two might be in order?
Its a good looking boat with a big sail area and a very respectable turn of speed - people at my SC are always coming over to have a look and I've had some favourable comments from RS400 and 59er drivers alike - so the idea that the boat is past its best or old-fashioned is a load of old ballox as far as I can see!
Its obviously not going to feature in Dinghy Racing Quarterly or whatever as the bright young thing on the block - but for those of us with more sense than money there's no reason why it shouldn't thrive...
...phew that turned into a bit more of an essay than I intended.
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Pete Lindley |
Posted: 11-Nov-05 18:44 |
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We the class committee are taking notes of all comments made and it is good to see names from outside our own little world having their two peneth. What stands out from what you say Murph is the fact there ARE two classes of people sailing the ISO. There are the racers and the pleasure users as you say. The racers (circuit racers) are mainly from the south as this is where the circuit is based (UNFORTUNATELY). Pleasure users are all over.
The committee is made up from circuit racers and a couple of very keen club racers. We the circuit racers & committee, do forget the pleasure users from time to time.
We do need to ensure all ISO sailors from wherever and whatever category, benefit from our actions. We are forever striving to deal with supplier issues. I think this is one of the major topics of discussion among the camp.
Any opinions to help us look at various situations without our blinkers, then please speak up. We may not reply, but we DO take note.
Pete
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