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Topic: Nationals / Insurance / Weather Charts |
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Pete Lindley |
Posted: 30-May-06 19:30 |
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All those that are planning to claim from the insurance after Saturdays potter around Hayling Bay, might be interested in the following two links.
www.isoracing.org.uk/downloads/weatherforecast270506.jpg
www.isoracing.org.uk/downloads/chimetdata.jpg
The first one from accuweather.com shows the hourly weather for Hayling Island for the afternoon upto 17:00.
The second link (chimet) shows the actual weather readings from the Chichester Bar (where we all found ourselves swimming at some point)shows the actual weather when we launched at 12:15 (17mph average) and how it increased to 22mph average with 30mph gusts by 13:00
Both forecasts show the same average with the same gusts. This will be good evidence for your claims. We launched in good conditions and not crazy ones! We didn't expect what we got - especially when that tide turned and made it so lumpy!
If anyone wants to look up historical data then you can get it on www.chimet.co.uk
Thanks Richard Lewis for these.
[Edited by Pete Lindley on 30-May-06 19:34]
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Penny Eyre |
Posted: 30-May-06 20:46 |
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I think Tim should get a job at the insurance company as he predicted the weather on 26 May at 11.34hrs (see message thread on t-shirts).
Did you not share this information with Ian?!!?!
By the way - even Musto pants would not have done the job - suggest "In-Conti-Bored" or "W.Hayling Bay Brick Co." pants may have worked better!?
Buzz 987
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Stuart Buzz 1027 |
Posted: 31-May-06 01:00 |
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Hi All,
My view may be a little controversial, but i think Hayling Island Sailing Club should be held responsible for costs rather than the insurance companies (which i know the club have disclaimers for). The club will have known what conditions to expect from an onshore breeze force 4 to 5 and these should have been mentioned during what was a very poor briefing. The wind was not that strong for many venues, but an onshore breeze in open water will always be rough and combined with shallow water this will always cause problems/ breakages. The minimal rescue boat cover was also something for concern. When i mentioned this the response was 'there was adequate cover for the number of boats', ie 4 for 45 boats. This may satisfy RYA recommendations but this is to be used as guidance and adjusted to suit the location, this has obviously not been done at HISC and of no use when 2 of the rescue boats are laying marks. I saw 2 ISO's without assistance for over 10 minutes, if anyone was trapped underneath i'm sure the onshore comment of 'well what's the problem, everyone was ok' may not have been so appropriate.
Anyway, that's my moan for the time being!! Fortunately i quite enjoyed surfing the waves and acquired no damage. I wont be competing in further events at HISC though.
Stuart.
Buzz 797. |
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Mark Dowling |
Posted: 31-May-06 09:45 |
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I thought the race management at Hayling Island sailing club was appalling - I have written to the Commodore and Harbourmaster expressing my views on how the race officer turned what could have been great weekend with some racing in the harbour into a debacle - ps Pete and Annie - great result really pleased for you ! |
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Pork_pie_eater |
Posted: 31-May-06 09:53 |
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I'm inclined to agree with the above comments - I've sailed at Hayling many times before, but nothing like we saw on Saturday, and you would expect the race committee to know what to expect on a rising-wind-against-spring-tide situation out in the bay. The wind speed was do-able, but I have rarely seen such a confused sea, and I sail at Shoreham! The rescue boat cover was nothing like enough, and one Boss was on its side for a good 30 minutes, and drifting towards the beach, completely unnoticed by the rescue boats, who were more involved in laying marks than rescuing.
We had already decided to call it a day before the committee came to the same conclusion. But it was quite fun planing back into the harbour with just the genoa.
I think we were all lucky to get away with 'just' one case of hypothermia.
PS - I hope no-one was too upset about the Bosses gatecrashing the start of the 4th ISO race on Sunday - you guys really must learn to shout louder, then we have a better chance of knowing where you are 
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Dan_Buzz414 |
Posted: 31-May-06 10:15 |
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Hi - Jo (mother of Dan) here.
Can I just say that if it wasn't for the sterling work of the RNLI, then I think the casulaties may have been greater. Dan and Ryan also saw HISC ribs checking the head count, but not actually doing anything to help. We had the pleasure of listening to their saftey briefing before the main group one, and I can't say I was impressed. Some of the rib crew were new to the area, needed to know where the boats were, what to do etc. There was no information given on what conditins to expect. If anyone had mentioned there was the least chance of bumpy (sorry don't know the correct terms) water, I would have advised the boys not to go in the first place, being that it was their first (possibly last) event on the sea.
Buzz 414 could possibly be no more. It is going to P&B tonight for an overview. If anyone remembers seeing anything (Dan flying over Ryans head) and wouldn't mind being witness if the insurance needs it, then please let me know. |
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Nick M |
Posted: 31-May-06 11:01 |
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forecast for saturday was 25-30knts of breeze with a 2m swell. Clearly not sailable! However the race management team persuaded the whole fleet to launch, indicating that wind conditions were less than 15 at 1300gmt, however, Chimet weather station was recording far greater winds at the same time. Do they not have access to chimet? were they too lazy?
I think there were only 3 HISC rescue boats on the course! when the coast guard picked us up, he indicated he was shocked that we had been sent out with the weather and shipping forecasts that had already been issued. |
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Graham Shaw |
Posted: 31-May-06 12:36 |
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I agree with all that has been said here. It was a a poor briefing and a poor choice of sailing area. An experienced Race Officer should not have managed the day in the way that he did on Satuday. Then he did the same on Monday!
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richard ayling |
Posted: 31-May-06 12:55 |
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as the 'one man with severe hypothermia' I would just publically repeat my big thank you to the RNLI team at Hayling who were superb despite certain unmentionable medical jokes at my expense!! Well that's two Buzz events Oxford - 30 Knots of wind and er... |
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Annie |
Posted: 31-May-06 12:55 |
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We had unfortunate weather conditions on Saturday and we were lucky to come away relatively unscathed.
I must say that as a result of this weekend I'm reluctant to sail on on pieces of water that I can't see from the sailing club- I don't like surprises,as most of us saw the conditions of each stretch of water seemed to differ quite drastically. Also one of the problems with sailing a reasonable distance from the club is that if something does go wrong it can be a long and lonely journey in.
I'm sure the race officer said it was going to be an enjoyable force 4. |
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Pete Lindley |
Posted: 31-May-06 14:10 |
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I must say Nick, that the race officer didn't do any pursuading on the Saturday morning. His forecast was a force 4 increasing later. On that note, who really needs any pursuasion?
I have raced in the harbour when it is reasonably busy and it is very interesting to say the least! There are yachts with limited draft, public sailors, fishing boats and our own racers everywhere - interesting stuff. Fed week must be just crazy! I do however think as a local, our race organisors in general, should have known the current weather and what was going to happen when the tide turned with the wind in that direction. Maybe they did but thought we could handle it as the wind wasn't that windy (only a F5)? It would have been nice to hear of their prediction though.
Rescue cover was a bit tame. In those conditions HISC could have done with a ration of 1 to 8 I think (making 5 or 6 ribs required).
HISC is a good club and I would still race there again. I would also like to suggest they look at their own weather stations on the internet though! It was very deceptive looking out onto the calmish harbour. When getting dressed, it made me put on less thinking it was fine weather, only to sail round the corner and feel the icy sea trickling down my back! Brrrrrr!!!
Can I ask all the newcomers / non regular race circuit attendees - has it put you off attending any race meetings?
FAO Jo(Mother of Dan) I think you were near enough correct with the technical term of bumpy water. I would possibly have said it reached enough severity to be classed as chuffin bumpy water!
FAO Richard Ayling - We are all pleased you have managed to recover so quickly and you weren't any worse.
[Edited by Pete Lindley on 31-May-06 14:30] |
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Jane_Mark Buzz 847 |
Posted: 31-May-06 14:23 |
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Well most has already been said though on a positive note I would like to say a big thank you to the HISC rib that helped us on Monday after our gooseneck broke. They offered sensible advice, had good boat skills and took our main so we didn't have it in the bottom of the boat as we sailed home under the jib and it was returned all tidily folded - thanks guys. Also a big thank you to the RNLI for holding our boat while we dropped our main on Saturday which surely saved us also being another mast casualty. I hadn't planned on improving my jib sailing skills but that was all I really got out of the week-end (and like stuart it was fun surfing the waves).
I couldn't believe they sent us out on again on Monday with what if I remember correctly was an increasing wind forecast and wonder if we should've all mutinied at that point.
It is such a shame as the waters around HISC offer fantastic sailing and if the weather had been different I am sure we would have had a great time.
Jane
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Jane_Mark Buzz 847 |
Posted: 31-May-06 14:29 |
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We made the Portsmouth Evening News under the title 'Unprepared' sailors risk lives in Solent - to be fair most of the article was about other sailors who went out to watch the Volvo Ocean race yachts and got into bother though of course we were mentioned but as on the radio it didn't mentioned classes but just referred to us as boats taking part in the HISC event. Also a great shot of one of the Volvo yachts with a tear up the full legth of its spinnaker so it was just us minnows having problems. The Solent Coastguard called it an unprecedented weekend of dramatic rescues with rescuers being called out 20 times a day. Other casulaties included 2 jet skiers who got lost and ran out of fuel and a diver showing symptoms of the bends.
Jane |
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Jane_Mark Buzz 847 |
Posted: 31-May-06 14:41 |
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Sorry me again - Fed Week which is run in the harbour with up to 400 boats from clubs around the area, all on the water at the same time, works surprising well but only because the opis and toppers race well out of the way while the rest of the fleet races in the harbour – the slower boats race round cans in an inner circuit while the faster boats do an outer circuit, with each course having possilby up to 7 or 8 starts. There are remarkably few incidents despite the different character of boats competing though it does pay to be alert.
The situation would have been different if they had tried to run a windward/leeward course for us in the harbour as it would bound to cross other club racing, although saying this I am sure something could have been sorted with good communication between all race officers involved that would have been more satisfactory that going out to the bay.
Jane
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Lloyd Walker |
Posted: 31-May-06 15:56 |
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I'm afraid the race officer was a bit too weak in his decision taking. Firstly why did we have to wait so long on Saturday for the abandonment? If he thought it was sailable why was the course not set when we got to the sailing area? On Monday why did he not make a decision about sailing in the harbour of his own accord? Imagine asking a football team who were winning a game how they would like to play extra time. Why did he abandon a race after two laps when he could have shortened course? It reminded me of a 400 nationals I did there about eight years ago. There were 120 entries on a similar day to Saturday about half the fleet made the start and I belive 32 finished. When we got to the sailing area in time for the start half the boats weren't there and the course was not set. We waited around in 25-30 knts for about half an hour. Deja Vous. |
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Nick M |
Posted: 31-May-06 16:01 |
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pete, i cornered the race officer asking him what he thought the conditions may do (just before he launched) as a forecast from wind guru highlighted the wind and waves would become alot worse. His reply was that it wont get much windier than it already is and sea state will be fine. |
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Ian Keam_George |
Posted: 31-May-06 18:06 |
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HISC is a good club with great facilities & sailing area. We had an unfortunate weekend due to a combination of factors which seems to have left a bad taste. We all know the host clubs disclaim responsibility for both personal & material damage as it's us, the competitors, who are ultimately responsible for ourselves & our boats.
There were certainly a couple of mistakes on the race management side the first on Saturday when we were kept out on the water too long in unpleasant conditions. The second was on Monday when we raced in similar conditions only to have the race abandoned in conditions very similar to that which we started in.
Having been a Race Officer I have some sympathy with our PRO for the weekend. There's pressure to race all the time as there are those that can cope with the strong conditions or others who welcome the really light stuff. Just like a football referee you can be damned if you do &, at the same time, damned if you don't.
We've had similar issues at Broadstairs & Restronguet (not damage just if we should sail)& are back on the same topic again.
It's about time we set, in our rules, upper & lower wind limits to make it clear for all concerned what we're prepared to sail in.
Until we do I fear the events of last weekend will repeat.
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Penny Eyre |
Posted: 31-May-06 19:35 |
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We agree with Ian that lower limits should be set but upper limits are more difficult as some crews thrive in strong winds. That also puts the RO under pressure to decide when to abandon. If we set a limit at 30kts and the forecast is 25kts increasing or 25kts with 30kts gusts, does that mean abandonment? The worry is that more races will be abandoned than is necessary.
The rules are that boats should only put to sea if they are happy with the conditions. They are responsible for themselves. We need the RO to give a detailed (and honest) picture of the forecast and nuances of local conditions and potential risks so that we are better informed. The RO should also be made aware that these boats are prone to capsize in windy conditions and that we need enough depth of water to allow for turtling! The wind was not necessarily the problem on Saturday - it was the sea state and shallow water that did most of the damage! Any upper wind limit would have made little difference.
Roger & Penny
Buzz 987 (still complete) |
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Stuart Buzz 1027 |
Posted: 31-May-06 23:55 |
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Well i know what you all get up to on a normal working day!!
Wind limits . . . well as Penny and Roger says, this wouldn't have made a difference at the weekend as it wasn't that windy really. A minumum wind to sail in is normally a constant 5 mph.
The wind strength we had at the weekend was perfect for a Nationals, if we were at a decent venue. Over the 3 days we had a suitable wind strength for all i think. Deal in 2004 was in open water and on the last day we had more wind than Hayling Island, the difference was that it was an offshore breeze, although still quite rough. It was also in water just outside the club and sensible courses so that if you had any problems you could return to the club easily.
The Hayling Island event was just poorly managed. The race officer did a good job on Sunday when conditions were fine, the courses were well set and positive decisions made when necessary. I would be interested to see HISC racing safety policy though if one exists as it is obviously inadequate. For info, i was warned of HISC's incompetance when windy as past events have been poorly run for other classes.
Anyway, that's my moan for tonight out the way!! What shall i moan about tomorrow!!!
Stuart.
Buzz 797. |
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John Paul Indoe |
Posted: 01-Jun-06 07:20 |
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I agree with Stuart, the wind was decent and not too bad, espcially on monday when we had our first race, gave us heavyweights a chance to catch up after our average performance on sunday. Still a good weekend, but quite a lot of it was just survival sailing, which is a shame, but theres always next year!
John-Paul Indoe
Buzz 591 |
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steveb |
Posted: 01-Jun-06 09:17 |
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The race officer knew of our rule of not racing below 4 knots or above 25 knots.
This rule does not take into account sea state which makes 25 knots of breeze over the bar against the tide too much or, like in Broadstairs, 4 knots of breeze against a tidal stream of 3 knots too little.
That is why we have to rely on the local knowledge/recommendations of the PRO. |
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Andrew Gould |
Posted: 04-Jun-06 11:20 |
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I thought the rescue operation orrganised by HISC on Saturday was very well managed and I am fed up with people passing the buck onto the race management. The inshore forecast from the Met Office was F4-5 decreasing 3, so you can't blame the race officer for sending us out. This was the forecast posted on the board. The fact that the wind chose to get up to force 6-7 instead was hardly anyone's fault. (If anyone claims they saw a different forecast, then why did you go out?)
When the wind piped up when we got out there, the race officer had no real choice but to abandon it and send us in. Then about a dozen boats got into trouble, and HISC were able to call in extra RIBs. In the end there were about 10 ribs out there. How many other clubs could have mustered that many rescue boats?
Let's face it, the weather is unpredictable. At an open meeting in La Baule a couple of year ago, the Laser 4000s lost 22 masts in a single day. It is rare, but these things happen. The fact is that in a crisis all the safety preparations worked and everyone got in safely. HISC should be congratulated for that and not criticised.
I would have liked to have Monday's racing in the harbour, and to have finished lap 3 of the race we did hold, but it was the competitors who were arguing that it wouldn't be fair to hold it inside the harbour.
(Actually, if you do a short windward leeward course over Pilsey sands, local knowledge wouldn't help at all, it is only the long triangular courses they have in Fed week where it helps to know the tides and mudbanks).
So all in all, please stop blaming race management- Thanks to HISC for organising an epic weekend!
Oh and congrats to Pete and Annie!
Andrew |
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Stuart Buzz 1027 |
Posted: 05-Jun-06 00:12 |
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Andrew,
The situation as i saw it was many boat crews were not checked on for 15-20 minutes, a rescue boat should have been able to check that the crew were ok a long time before this as if there was a problem it would have been too late by the time they arrived. If you feel that that is ok then fair enough but i dont and i know my club wouldn't accept that as being ok. Broken masts dont really matter, but people do!!
This is not the first time HISC have been criticised for their poor safety cover and judging from comments when back on shore of 'well what's the problem everyone was ok' i dont expect it'll be the last.
I think i've said enough on this subject now so intend to leave it and hope we dont experience the same incompetence again.
Stuart.
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Pete Lindley |
Posted: 05-Jun-06 14:59 |
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I feel that there was enough rescue cover - that is if the RNLI and Harbour control are counted. I think they both provided an extra 4 boats. There aren't many clubs that count the RNLI and HC as their rescue provider! We know it wasn't the wind that was the major contributor to the damage, just mainly the swell and bar-(sand). There wasn't much damage on the Monday when we were out there surviving!
Since picking up the trophies on Monday afternoon, I can honestly say it doesn't feel like winning the nationals. To Annie and myself, it feels like a normal open event. We did sail very well on Sunday - much to our and your amazements! Saturday we survived(ish), Monday we survived and were on our way home due to being OCS and not impressed with that decision at all and spat our dummies out (well I spat mine out!) I still say we were safe on the start! In the harbour is ok, but I am pleased we didn't launch - especially when that 40knot squal ripped through at about 13:15!!!
Ok so you lot are down and depressed about the whole thing - so are we and we won!
Pete
[Edited by Pete Lindley on 05-Jun-06 16:03] |
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Penny Eyre |
Posted: 05-Jun-06 20:51 |
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Down but not out - let's look forward to Herne Bay and the Europeans and put this down to one of life's rich experiences.
We can all learn from this........
We must also be careful not to publish anything that could leave us open to accusation of libeling the race management team. We don't want to be sued - that would just add insult to unjury. (no pun intended!)
Penny
Buzz 987
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stratfoa |
Posted: 06-Jun-06 18:36 |
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Hi everybody,(1195) I have only just had time to catch up on this thread but would like to air my own views although they are sort of covered by some of the other correspondents.
I think the point to be made is that we could not be aware of the true conditions outside the harbour from our sheltered dinghy park so we could only rely on the briefing given by the RO. Also we would expect the sea to be rougher in the harbour entrance so we were not able to make a true analysis of the conditions until were actually in the sailing area. Also although the rescue boat ratio was as recommended, if a boat needed towing home that reduced the ratio for the duration of the tow which including getting out of harbour again and could be nearly an hour. This effectively meant that after only four broken masts we had no free rescue boats. We also had decided to come in on Saturday before the race was abandoned partly because of lack of rescue boat cover around the apparent carnage.
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David |
Posted: 06-Jun-06 21:40 |
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Hi, As one of the unfortunates that snapped our mast on the return leg on Saturday, Im afraid it was just one of those things ! Yes we were lucky nothing else occured, but guys, sailing is a dangerous sport - ask any life assurance company ! We, even as locals, know it gets rough across the bar with wind against tide, but it was unexpected to be quite so bad.
As a PRO myself for several opens, maybe he should have postponed / abandoned earlier, and on Monday maybe he should have run it in the harbour, though hindsight is a wonderful thing !
The rescue cover was adequate and we were checked on before the abandonment, and I know 3 of the safety crew and they were stretched because the conditions worsened compared to the forecasts. I think it was one in 10 forecasts that said it would increase.
I seem to remember an ISO Open at Eastbourne a couple of years back, and the weather was equally horrendous - i think someones mast snapped within 200m of the beach, so before we go on and find someone to blame, lets just think first - we can just say NO !
It was hardly as though the ride out on Saturday was smooth ??
So, my insurance is picking up the tabs cos thats what I pay them for, Im just buying the tube, spreaders and halyards that I need; and therefore not taking the p...
And will keep sailing, doing Opens when I can, and will just think that maybe I should say No before someone else does it for me !
Nuff said, well done to all concerned organising, rescuing, winning and taking part - what a weekend !! |
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Mike L |
Posted: 07-Jun-06 08:33 |
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Being local and the person who secured the Nationals at HISC I thought it was time I said my bit about Saturday. Andrew, Richard and I are all local; we knew where to look for weather and about the bar. We all expected the wind to stay at 15 / 18 knots and set our boats accordingly including our best sails. There were also 4 Moths out training including the Euro Champion, believe me these Guy’s wouldn’t have gone out if they new the wind was going to pick up. I have also had many reports during the week of how other people were caught out in the unexpected conditions. It is all very well to sit back after an event and say your bit but if those of us who are Race Officers were honest we would have all made the same decision. There were sufficient Patrol Boats for the conditions we set of in and expected, there will never be enough for when it all goes wrong. I am amazed at the comments from people who are saying this is normal at HISC because they had a problem once before. Lets get the facts straight here, they run events like this every weekend, the Woman National Champs were the weekend before us , the RS feva’s are this weekend ( 85 boat’s they wanted last weekend but HISC stuck by us ! ), there are many top class Nationals and Olympic Class Regattas all run extremely well but no one has mentioned that. If we had 3 day’s of good conditions you would all be saying how fantastic Hayling was including its fantastic facilities. I feel very sorry for those who had problems and hope we see you all back on the water soon especially Dan and Ryan who I would like to offer a free place at a training weekend when 414 is back up and running. I look forward to seeing where the Nationals will be next year, but beware; it is your decision to race! |
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Dan_Buzz414 |
Posted: 07-Jun-06 16:25 |
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Thanks Mike - if only we could take you up on the offer
Unfortunatley we heard from P&B and Noble Marine yesterday, and Buzz 414 is no more. The cost to repair was £2,760 plus VAT plus sails - much more than she was worth. We get a cheque and the remains of the boat........... not sure what to do with the boat???? Also need to decide what to buy next. |
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Bob Ladell |
Posted: 07-Jun-06 17:24 |
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- Sell the bits as spares
- buy a darned good ISO for that cheque
- take up Mike's training offer
- have some change to spend at the bar
.............. and a load of fun
Welcome back afloat !
Bob |
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Mark Dowling |
Posted: 08-Jun-06 08:25 |
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Aaaah its all becoming clear now - all along I was thinking that the Race officer had sent us out in dangerous conditions which were obvious from the outset and then kept us hanging around for whatever reason - when all along it was all our faults for going out in the first place...... |
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Annie |
Posted: 08-Jun-06 20:53 |
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I think that when we initially launched the conditions were not obviously dangerous otherwise I for one would not have gone. I do however think that enough has been said on this subject. I'm sure its not the first time we've been out and conditions have changed and nor will it be the last!
We should all be looking forward to the next event. |
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Stuart Buzz 1027 |
Posted: 11-Jun-06 01:21 |
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Dan,
If you want to sell what's left of Buzz 414 let me know. Email me at bailey.stu@btinternet.com with details of what's left and condition of the bits, if that's ok.
Stuart.
Buzz 797. |
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Gary Buzz 1004 |
Posted: 11-Jun-06 20:42 |
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Dan - I have a very nice Buzz 1004 which may interest you. See classifieds.
Gary |
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Penny Eyre |
Posted: 12-Jun-06 13:44 |
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Dan
We're definitely interested in your pink spinnaker if it survived!
What condition is it in, and how much do you want for it?
Email offline to: eyre.beresleigh@tiscali.co.uk
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