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Author Topic: changes to the Rules
spice364 Posted: 12-Aug-04 20:03
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With my on going battle with my new main and them in high places, has any one got any ideas on rule changes or tweaks to the boats?
 
Pete Lindley Posted: 18-Aug-04 10:09
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As concluded at the training weekend:-
- Shorten trapeze wires and put discs on all four wires.
- When racing windward leeward, don't rush to twin wire. If not twin wiring, get the helm off the wire to unload the rig.
- Keep the boat dead flat upwind - if it feels comfortable, then you are doing it wrong! (Ian P will vouch for this)
- Make sure the front of the rudder blades are touching the stock at the bottom - if they are hitting the hull first, then get the half moon file out and take some of the hull away!
- Get some of the ISO tweaks put on the Spice (Spin sheet take up, outhaul purchase, cunningham mod (with extra bit of rope tied to space frame))
- Two knots in the trapeze adjuster
- A coarse and fine trapeze adjuster (needs hertzog, D12 or similar material for this, the full length)
- Take the double block off of the strops - not needed (unless your ratchet doesn't work Andy P!)
- Pack your daggerboard cases out so the board doesn't wobble around and pop up all the time!
- A piece of elastic round the mast foot tied to the daggerboard so not to lose your daggerboard or boat on a capsize!

Anything else Spicers?

Pete
 
apawtionofshawts Posted: 18-Aug-04 19:10
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there are rules for all that anyway???
 
Simon Boyle Posted: 18-Aug-04 21:06
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Pete thanks for this - note I guess you mean a coarse and fine strop adjustment (not trapeze)
BTW P&B (www.pinbax.com/) shortened my trapeze wires while I waited for the cost of 4 new eyes.... very helpful
A couple of other points I made a note of:
- shorten the webbing around the boom to bring the mainsheet blocks closer to the boom
- loosen the battens in light winds (less depth, easier tacking)
 
Pete Lindley Posted: 18-Aug-04 22:32
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I mean Trapeze strings. Total string and no wire for those who have plenty of £££. But in general, shorter wires will help you all.

 
Ian Paterson Posted: 19-Aug-04 19:03
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Not sure its worth debating rule changes at present when Sobstad can radically change our mainsail size/shape & class perfomance without any notice/consultation with us (or indeed anyone probably). This needs urgent resolution.

re mast packing/board packing what do you recommend Pete?

[Edited by Ian Paterson on 19-Aug-04 19:04]
 
Bob Ladell Posted: 20-Aug-04 21:38
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Trapeze string - I changed 814's to 5mm dyneema ( 'cos I had some in the sail bag of no use anywhere else ). Two short wires with J hooks £10 each - well did get them made in Garda. Rope was about £18 at one of the Boat / Dinghy Shows. Total around £40 vs £95 for Herzog. We just used an overhand knot as a couple of stopper knots for the coarse adjustment and do the rest on the normal adjustment. Works for us.

Mast packing. I use kitchen top edging ( Formica ) - the 50mm wide stuff nearly same height as the mast gate in order to spread the load across the whole gate instead of the point contact afforded by the plastic angle stuff that used to be fitted. Hold it in place with a couple of bits of elastic - makes it easy to remove when packing the boat away.

Tip - check your swatcher rope. Might look good on the outside - but the inner may be about to give way. Doesn't half depower quickly up the beat when it goes !!! Worth changing every couple of years.
 
Pete Lindley Posted: 20-Aug-04 22:38
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Swatcher - use 4mm plait pre stretched rope. You can see it's health all the time.

 
apawtionofshawts Posted: 21-Aug-04 17:42
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i have been reading this topic all the way through, and need to make note of all this information. i am wondering though how important it is and how big the differnce is to the boats that have all the adjustments to those, like mine at the momwnt, that haven't? i am guessing its just like any other class and therefore can answer my own question but just wanted to check.
 
Pete Lindley Posted: 22-Aug-04 11:07
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Well all of the items listed here were discussed at the training weekend and everybody there was in total agreement that the mods would make the boat easier to sail, so I'll leave it up to you to decide!

Pete
 
Ian Paterson Posted: 02-Sep-04 20:17
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re the coarse adjustment for the trapeze rope -
I now have shorter trapeze wires and made up new rope handles with disks as per the advice from Pete L. However, I'm a bit hazy where you are tieing the knots for the coarse adjustment. Do you feed the rope through the wire eye then tie 2 knots, one either side of the eye? If not what? and how much coarse adjustment do you need (assume that the distance between the knots is the range of adjustment)?
Answers welcome so I can sort this at the w/end....
 
Ian Paterson Posted: 22-Sep-04 15:20
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This thread was originally about changing the rules!

Does anyone have a copy of the Spice rules? How do we change them - at the AGM? Advice from the watching Iso's please who have done it?
So anyway here are some serious proposed changes:
1i) deregulate the ropes and blocks schedule for all running rigging. The Isos have done this as some specified blocks are no longer available. Similarly the ropes need to be de-specified as:
a) they are sometimes difficult to get from our local small chandlers
b) most Spices are now 2nd hand and from what I've seen the ropes have been replaced with whatever people fancied by previous owners - making people change them all could be costly and unnecessary
c) some of the original rope specs were poor eg too thick so generating friction and stopping systems working effectively esp true of the kicker which is crucial for upwind control. We want the systems to work effectively so the Spice is a pleasure to sail don't we?

The wording should be taken from the Ios rule change. Why reinvent wheels?
1ii) The Buzz also allows a block for the gennicker halyard to run through, attached to hull somewhere by a rope or bungee to provide a bit of tension for the halyard, preventing knots during drops. It works well and makes life a lot easier for crews! We could use the Buzz wording.

2) The mast spreader angle and length should be free if its not already (its supposed to be manufacturer set on the Buzz not sure about the Spice),and we all seem to have different setting already ( not sure why....) but we will need to shift things if we are forced into using the new mainsail shape. Again if the Isos have this in their rules we should use it.

3) Digital Compasses. If there is a rule currently banning them or specifying a model or make then I'd like to change it to allow digital compasses of the basic tacktick type. Its allowed by other classes eg RS800 L4K, Buzz etc. It only provides a digital version of an analogue tactical compass, with a built in stopwatch. You still have to read it and work out what its telling you re lifts & headers etc -it doesn't tell you speed, position, give lift readouts, etc like the sportsboats models.

In cost terms its no more expensive than having a decent Silva tactical compass and one of those large boom or mast mounting stopwatches in the boat, which presumably are allowed, so what's the problem with having it in one unit? Time to join the digital world!

Thats enough for now.The new Iso rules can be seen/downloaded from their website, seem very simple and clear and allow these 3 changes.

Spice 346
Flatbroke



[Edited by Ian Paterson on 22-Sep-04 15:42]
 
apawtionofshawts Posted: 23-Sep-04 17:24
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two things to pick up from the last post by Ian, ropes: just recently had to replace a few ropes and i did indeed just go for what ever. are there some types that are not permitted?
the next thing could be a problem. my new mast is comming from proctor. its just a tube with all the fittings from my old one being moved across. is this going to be a problem or has it got to be the supaspars m6? i am lead to belive it is the m6 but with a differnt name tag on it. i haven't seen it yet but when i do, i'll let you know.
any thoughts?
 
Bob Ladell Posted: 23-Sep-04 22:47
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Ian - think you've summarised the ISO changes of the last 2 years very well.

Spreaders - there's no rule as such as the where the pins / bolts have to be fitted - in / out / forwards / backwards is sailors choice. Just the spreader type / model is specified via the Superspars definition as an ISO mast. I don't know what the section is nor whether there is a direct Proctor equivalent - academic as Proctor isn't in the ISO design. For you guys in the Spices my personal view is allow an equivalent from ANO if that keeps you all on the water easier / cheaper with the same performance.

Digital compasses - still a bit of bar debate on this one with only 1 or 2 people using them. We have permitted the TacTik showing when to tack - look at one of the last clauses for the words. I've tried and failed to even look at a compass - advice from Ian K-G needed on this one for you and me I think for pond sailing where there are ready points of reference on shore you can do without it. Sea sailing, like Shoreham, then it would have been an asset.

For starting I just use a Big Digit count down timer built into a waterproof case. Came from Maplin for a whole £7 and works for us - just needs the muppet at the back to get the hang of getting in the right place on the start line before worrying about spending £250 on a TacTik. New jib comes 1st.
 
Ian Paterson Posted: 25-Sep-04 16:52
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Bob,
I'd agree with you on masts if people can source a M6 from proctor more easily tha S'Spar then why not. When I sailed Ents you could choose between them (which came to costs) and this in a class that was very harsh in enforcing its rules. (I was binned in the Nats for having my jib fairlead 2mm too far apart! cost of fixing £120)

Anyway. I'd think Spices should just adopt the Iso rules (minus section on wings of course), with the something added to allow SPar or any other M6 masts, and change Iso for Spice throughout! Anyone got a word copy of the Iso rules we can edit?

re digital compasses. I find reading and remembering the digital compass numbers easier, now, than my old silva. You still have to remember if you want numbers to go up or down to tack - it does not talk or have any visual indicator of lift of header (unlike the original micro compass that was banned originally by many one-design classes).
It may not be strictly necessary on smaller venues, but if you want to use it on big ones then you've got to get the habit and understand them! I'm still learning I confess!

More important for a 2 wire boat is a large readable coutdown if you want to time a run in while the crew is concentrating on other matters - its not easy to look at a stopwatch when its attached to your tiller hand!

re costs the last time I costed it there was little to choose between silva and tacktick (inc mounting brackets for each) plus a good stopwatch.



[Edited by Ian Paterson on 25-Sep-04 17:00]
 
Chris Posted: 28-Sep-04 21:44
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See web site for class rules. We need to all be a bit careful here guys and not get carried away, by having old class boats and modernised boats which will put people off getting out there and racing. Imagine the scene of some one buying an older boat and then spending a lot of money just to update because they see what the lead boat has. I am in agreement that if an alternative comparable item can be sourced cheaper then thats good for the class, but to go for drastic changes, then surely we are diversing from a fixed class. Do we decide on becoming a developement class, forcing the cost up on running our boats? I for one am not interested in that. Lets be careful on what we want.
Chris
 
apawtionofshawts Posted: 29-Sep-04 00:01
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i agree that it is dangerous to move towards a delvelopment class, not that thats where we were heading. unless i am reading it wrong, which i may well be doing, the cost doesn't look like its about to rocket through the roof, only with with digital compassses, which is compleltly crews choice.
 
Ian Paterson Posted: 29-Sep-04 20:42
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There is certainly not any move here by me to become a development class. The changes proposed would not be anything that turn us into a development class, or even close to it.

This is an attempt to ensure consistentcy between topper classes re what is and is not legal. This is firmly based on the principles well laid out in the previous Iso discussions on this matter of maintaining the class as a one design, keeping costs down but recognising that some minor changes need to be made to keeep the fleet legal given supply changes etc(see previous message board posts re changing rules).

The ropes/blocks change only makes legal what we have all done (or our previous owners have done) in changing ropes and blocks from those specified in the parts schedule. In many cases this is because most people have not seen the schedule or rules & its simply not possible or practical. In some cases its because the original spec simply does not work properly. (The first piece of advice I got from Paul Clements was to change the kicker rope for a narrower diameter non-stretch so the kicker would work properly.)The rules (see the website) allow changes of up to 2mm but says nothing about changing block or freedom to add fairleads, so need amending.

re compasses the digital type allowed by the Iso's is not more expensive (see above) or in any way advantageous (except that I find an analogue very difficult to read from the back of the boat!) so if its OK for Iso's why not us? The Spice rules allow electriconic timekeeping and a speed log (as described on the Spec)!! If thats allowed then what wrong with a basic electronic tactical compass

re masts etc if its like for like (and it must be not just the section but sealed and fittings I think) I can see no reason why we must stick to S'spar but I realise this may be tricky and goes beyond the current Iso position. I'd be interested to know why Proctor was chosen by "apawtionofshawts" rather than S Spar.

However we must be free to have variable spreaders given
a)we all have different settings anyway and
b) if the new main is forced on us by Sobstad then we will need to change settings to get it to set properly.

The Spice rules (which are very brief) already deal with some issues that the Iso's are now legal on eg type of trapeze adjuster, but its difficult to know about some equipment rules (eg spreader type and setting, varying the length of trapeze wires) unless we also have access to the Class spec - anyone seen this?

Finally nothing that is proposed above is as potentially significant in terms of changing the performance of the Spice and as costly for us as the issue of the new mainsail design being forced on us by Sobstad.

Come on guys this really is not a big deal if the Iso's can agree on these changes surely we can



[Edited by Ian Paterson on 03-Oct-04 18:42]
 
Ian Paterson Posted: 22-Oct-04 16:09
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Having been banging on about the new main for some time here, I thought that you all would like to know (if you don't already), that our Class Sec Chris Hames has managed to sort it out. He phoned Sobstad recently, as he knows someone there from his big boat sailing.
It seems they were rather defensive about the situation and complained to him about the hassle they'd got on this matter (so obviously the message had been getting through the right channels - well done to those involved).
Chris then cleverly suggested he could send them measurements from his sail and they offered to recut the offending main to fit the accepted pattern - result!
So it pays to support the class association - join now if you haven't
 
Chris Posted: 25-Oct-04 12:58
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Not quite true Ian, I would not say Sobstad were defensive, more like very helpful to resolve the problem. Its easy to critise, but then we need to look at it another way, last year Sobstad made two Spice sails, this year thanks to Topper putting in an order for four sails they will have made six sails, not a huge number for a special sail. So as a class I think that we want to be thank full that we have a sail maker willing to make one off sails at a competative price. Jeremy who sorted out the problem incidently was involved with the Spice in its infancy, and enjoyed his sailing on the boat. Thanks again Sobstad.
 
Ian Paterson Posted: 27-Oct-04 20:33
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I entirely agree that its Good News that a constructive solution has been found, and lets hope that this marks the beginning of a new relationship with our only approved class sailmaker. Certainly the story told on the message boards, at class events & AGMs over the past 6 years or so has not really been to the benefit of either party.
It should give more confidence to those of us considering buying new sails in future, that we know we can now go to someone in Sobstad who knows the class to any discuss any issues or concerns arising.
 
Ian Paterson Posted: 27-Oct-04 20:41
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.......and now Back to the main subject of rules.
In case you thought I'd stopped working on this I have drafted a list of suggested changes which are now sitting with Jim and Chris as our 2 principle office holders to consider. If anyone's interested in seeing my thoughts let me know. However, I'm going to be out of circulation for a month shortly and don't propose to do anything more before then.

[Edited by Ian Paterson on 27-Oct-04 20:42]
 
Phil B Posted: 01-Nov-04 23:54
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>>For starting I just use a Big Digit count down timer built into a >>waterproof case. Came from Maplin for a whole £7 and works for us

Sounds a great idea. There are two countdown timers on the Maplin website. One with ten numerical buttons, and one with just three buttons. Which one do you use, and where did you get the waterporrof case?
 
Bob Ladell Posted: 02-Nov-04 22:40
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Just the 3 button version is quite enough buttons to push with gloves on. They have a new version that goes straight into count up. Handy if you really want to know lap times and finish time.

Made the waterproof case - piece of ally I had lying about, 4 bits of wood ( they polish up nicely - and were free ), bit of perspex for the front and some bathroom sealer, a few brass screws - and about half an hour to put it all together.

For waterproof buttons just drill holes in the perspex at the right points - bit oversize. Gently countersink and the over fill with bathroom sealer.

To hold it on the boat I just cut a couple of grooves in the ally at either side and used some elastic round the mast gate. Job done. Come to the KGSC@Datchet Open Handicap event ( plug, plug )- you're welcome to take a look.
 
Pete Lindley Posted: 02-Nov-04 23:23
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I use my stopwatch on my £20 Timex Ironman watch so that I know:-

- how long the race has been running
- if this could / should be the last lap,
- if the race is to be abandoned due to not getting to first mark in time,
- time from last boat finishing for protest time limit,
- time limit for last boat finishing from the first boat finishing

....scenarios.

Also with the stopwatch, if you miss the 5 min, you can get the 4min without having to press any other buttons to alter the time etc.

Wrist watch is handy, but a bit awkward when wearing a drysuit / sleeves that fall over the watch covering it from immediate view.
Always have a time facility for crew and helm just incase one fails / gets reset accidentally etc. Crew should call the time anyway.

[Edited by Pete Lindley on 02-Nov-04 23:24]
 

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