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Topic: ISO rudders |
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Lloyd Walker |
Posted: 18-Apr-07 11:26 |
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Whilst we were bored out of our minds waiting for wind at Chew I tried a Laser 4000 rudder on the ISO to see how it fitted and it is not bad. The problem is that the bottom fitting on the boat would have to be moved 25mm lower. Other than that it is perfect. I would imagine that this is not allowed in the class rules and this set me thinking. Why don't we make an ammendment to the rule about moving fittings as an exception to the rudder fittings. This would enable those who want to try all sorts of new rudders. Before everyone starts jumping up and down let me say that after all the time since the rule change was introduced to allow new rudder stocks I have yet to see one. This ammendment could be the answer. Also the IYE rudder that the 4K's use has heavy guage rudder fittings which I think look strong. The tiller also looks to be at the right angle. Also I gather that Mike Lilywhite has found a rudder which fits although I don't know if the fittings are an exact match. IYE are in Southend so I could easily persue this if it is wanted by taking my boat along to them and asking if I can do a test with it. Lloyd. |
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Matt Harris |
Posted: 18-Apr-07 13:59 |
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What is the rudder like on a 4k? The best thing that i think could be changed about the rudder is to incorporate a dagger style rudder similar to a 29er/49er. This would avoid the heavyness as you leave a beach and allow a lot more control. Does anyone know how this could be achieved? |
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Pete Lindley |
Posted: 18-Apr-07 14:05 |
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The rudder post would have to be beefed up a bit if you move the gudgeon up.
Pete |
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Tim |
Posted: 18-Apr-07 17:02 |
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Pete, the gudgeon needs to be moved down so I think that would make it put less force on the fittings (if my physics are correct). The only issue with lower the gudgeon is it might be a bit hard on fix on as it will end up being quite close to the bottom of the post.
Tim |
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Lloyd Walker |
Posted: 18-Apr-07 21:55 |
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Tim is correct, the bottom gudgeon needs to be moved down 25mm. This would make the force less om the rudder post and also take away the bent pin situation. The IYE stock is anodised alluminium and does not hold a dagger style blade but the tiller is fixed and does not need a pin. The blade is held down with a rope downhaull this can be cleated with the RWO special cleat that trips when you run aground. The only thing that needs altering is the re-enforcement inside the post. this needs a new piece mounted a bit lower on the inside. When the new fitting is ready to bolt on just glue a plywood pad on the inside using the new fitting to hold it in place whilst the glue goes off. I do need to check to see what is required to fit the ISO blade. I know the pivot hole is in the wrong place but I think that is the only thing. Also the stock has a wing nut to provide friction to hold the blade up. |
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Lloyd Walker |
Posted: 23-Apr-07 08:53 |
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Can anyone show me the link to the rules regarding the rudders I could not find anything about it being an optional design. I must be looking in the wrong place.
Also funny how this thread has died already; am I the only one who thinks if we want to have a more modern looking boat then having a lump on the back that looks like a piece of agricultural machinery is not good? Any views from the committee or tech committee would be more than welcome. |
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tasarhans |
Posted: 23-Apr-07 09:16 |
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http://www.isoracing.org.uk/rules_regs/isoracingrules2004.htm
section 3 f/g:
(f) The tiller extension, tiller and rudder stock shall be unrestricted except that the blade shall remain capable of lifting whilst the stock is attached to the hull.
(g) The rudder blade shall be supplied by Topper International or their agents or any other supplier to a design, profile and material approved by the ISO Class Association Executive Committee or copyright holders. The design of the blade shall remain unchanged except that alternative fixing points may be used, above the waterline, to facilitate raising and lowering in the event that an alternative stock is used in (f) above.
Rules are about the blade/ profile. The rest is free, but I think the blade position must be as the original (design of the rudderblade shall be remain unchanged).
The 49er solution of raising the blade is very attractive but we changed the blade fix as suggested on this website (http://www.isoracing.org.uk/iso_guides/preventions.htm , andy's damage control section: click the tiller in position, no extra pins.. and I mast say.. that works easy and fine) I put the Buzz tiller on the rudder for extra space in the boat and that is good in light winds)
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Ian Moss |
Posted: 23-Apr-07 09:35 |
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No Lloyd, I think a new rudder stock is long over due and have a few ideas about what we could do and have spoken to people who may be able to make something.
I am not convinced we should start moving pintles though.
Out of interest does anyone have an old spare rudder blade, Condition is not important?
Ian Moss |
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Pete Lindley |
Posted: 23-Apr-07 17:39 |
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Yes thanks Ian. |
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Lloyd Walker |
Posted: 23-Apr-07 19:57 |
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I presume the bit in the rule about fixing points refers only to the blade although it is a bit ambiguous. Personaly I think moving one small fitting is much less contraversial than making a lighter boat if the new boat is lighter or having a new sail plan. It would take about 30 mins and be a lot cheeper than having a new stock made specially. If I were to turn up with an IYE stock at the next event would I be disqualified? I think it may be an idea to try the thing out and I would possibaly be able to get one from IYE. |
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Bob Ladell |
Posted: 23-Apr-07 20:19 |
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The intent behind the rudder stock rule is that the stock itself has been open choice since Rules 2004 approval. Use what you like and you won't get disqualified on that count.
The aim at the time of writing the rule was, like most of the rule changes, to enable people to carry on sailing when the standard stock supply was non existent. The key point is that the wetted part of blade remains standard - same wetted area and profile. The performance of the bit that waggles it about is more to do with the "old guy at the back" (  ) than what it looks like or is made of and is consequently ISO owners choice.
The question of moving gudgeons - which means drilling new holes in the hull is a bit ambiguous. However, my personal take on it would be a) that if the new holes are within 5mm of the existing ones then you are inside the rules anyway, b) if you are not sure / want to apply for a dispensation, to ensure that you are not disqualified, then put your request in writing describing exactly what you want to do to the Tech Committee ( Ian Moss initially ) for their consideration.
The continued stipulation of it being a lifting rudder ( stock ) was aimed at not having fixed rudder blades that risk ripping the transom posts off boats in the event of hitting a rock - although I would acknowledge that if you then have the pin inserted that scenario isn't much different to a fixed rudder ( hence my personal preference for a big bit of shock cord holding the tiller arm in place - blade will pop up before major damage occurs )
Either way - on this topic or any other to do with the boat evolution, if someone has a good idea and wants to try it then either get on with it at club sailing and report on the result - or put your request to the Tech Committee and ask for their support. If it is accepted but needs a rule change then that will go through the Committee and balloting / AGM process in due course - just like the sails are doing now and all other rule change proposals have done in the past. Some were accepted - others were not.
Hope that helps Lloyd ?? look forward to seeing / hearing about the results.
Bob |
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Lloyd Walker |
Posted: 24-Apr-07 13:59 |
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Thanks Bob
I will put it in writing to Ian. I think the holes will be 25mm lower than the existing ones but that means the bottom holes are within 5mm of the new top holes if that makes sense. Anyway I will try and do it so people can have a look.
See you soon Lloyd. |
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rob |
Posted: 24-Apr-07 16:48 |
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At the dinghy show Barry and I went and had a chat with the guy from sea sure. He will, can, and does produce prototype rudder stocks and tillers to fit any boat and blade. To produce the prototype he did need a first order of ten guarenteed.
We took an example back to the stand but there seemed to be a lack of inthusiasum.
Rob and Barry 1022 |
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Lloyd Walker |
Posted: 25-Apr-07 08:40 |
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That sounds alright but the advantage of this rudder stock is it is already made and they could sell them individualy. Any purpose made rudder stock is bound to be more expensive and there could be problems with supply but using one from another class will help with the supply problem and keep the cost down. IYE are bound to keep making them to supply the 4000 also I think I saw the same stock at Chew with a Holt logo on it so there may even be two manufacturers of the same stock. Lloyd. |
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